(no subject)

[tj_dragonblade]

For anyone who may not have seen what set off my last post: Naked Goujun. Worksafe.

Elsewise. I'm now finding that the biggest problem with my Goujun-Kou crack endeavor is not knowing/having the terms that 'sound right' by which they should address one another. There's a formal, proper, courtly-deferential tone that I'm needing, particularly on Kou's part since Goujun is of higher social standing (right?) but...'Your Majesty' does not sound right, either in reference to Goujun or coming from Kou's mouth. *sigh*. I think I could get away with Goujun using 'Your Highness' instead of 'you', but...not without an equal show of respect on Kou's part. There's got to be some mode of address that a prince of one region would use when speaking to the king/emperor/ruler/whatever of another; I'm just not having much luck googling the subject. I'm leary of randomly adopting some term I find online anyway without a proper knowledge-base to back it up. More often than not, one winds up looking the ignorant fool when one does so.

Also not fond of dropping random Japanese terms into an English-language fic, particularly when they're not widely-fanused terms. I want to know how it would be done in Japanese, or even Chinese, and then a suitable equivalent-translation in English that hopefully doesn't sound staunchly European.

Hell, y'know, it'd even help if English had formal vs. informal terms (and plural, too, while we're at it!) for 'you', like every so many other languages out there, instead of just...well...'you'.

*sigh* Again.

Comments

[marasmine.livejournal.com]

I would suggest something like Honoured Cousin but I don't think it would really fit in this case. European royalty are inbred enough for that term to be correct most of the time. Maybe Noble something? Good luck finding something suitable!

Thanks for the link!

[deathlike.livejournal.com]

Terms of using "Lord" (sama) works well... Lord Kougaiji as Yaone always address him. No you's or your's being use due to closeness. Apparently, Yaone isn't that close with Kouagiji. Nii uses it as a mockery for himself and Kougaiji; historical stuff I'd rather not explain, since it gets too lengthy when I do.

[soliandxpyne.livejournal.com]

mm, sorry us rude english dont believe in defferential language, haha. ¬¬;;;; as polite as it gets is "Sir" or "Madame/Ma'am/Miss" etc. Would sir work? or maybe something like, "esteemed ruler"? or perhaps just the use of his title? ((which is "Prince"?)) x_x;; sorry i'm not helpful.

[bronzetigress.livejournal.com]

Down in KC I got a lot of "y'all" instead of "you", and "all y'all" for the plural, but that may be a bit too regional a usage? *shakes head* Sorry, all I can think of at the moment...

[nightengale.livejournal.com]

................


hi gojun

[tj-dragonblade.livejournal.com]

♥, yes? ^_^

How's you, btw?

[nightengale.livejournal.com]

♥, *yes*.

Life sucks then we die. But at least I'm writing porn.

[thefacelessevil.livejournal.com]

In all the fictional movies, and books that I've read/seen the royalty address each other with their royal titles. No different then what anybody else would call them - but I wouldn't know how reality dictates that.

A Prince/Princess would be 'Highness', a King/Queen would be 'Majesty', that's the difference I know between using the expressions. I can't remember Emperor. I think it's "His excellency".

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Agatha Christie has a character saying you can't go wrong with 'excellency.' His excellency when talking about him, your excellency to his face. To my ear, drop the 'your' and you have semi-equals addressing each other: especially if it's moot whether Kou is speaking to the King of the Western Ocean (calls for Your Majesty, I think) or the Chief Commander of the heavenly army of the West (where Excellency should do just fine.)

Japanese IME opts for a flat heika (highness) as an address, but doesn't like to use addresses at all. Generally you just use the kind of respect level in verbs and verb endings that you can't do in English except by suggestion: total use of third person when talking to a person. 'If Your Majesty would care to give his thoughts on the matter...?'

FWIW Kou's Japanese is one politeness level higher than I expect from someone his rank and gives me the impression of a very well spoken person. I wouldn't have a problem hearing him say Your Majesty to someone who calls him Your Highness; but it would depend on the context of the exchange. Friendly? Guardedly friendly? Edge of hostility? or what.

[deathlike.livejournal.com]

I would think they would address each other by each other's name due to their titles and equal ranks. It would be silly using the titles anyway because of that.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

The thing is, traditionally you just dont use names. Even now, you don't use names. The Emperor and the crown prince are never referred to by name in Japanese- it's 'his majesty the Emperor' and the Crown Prince. Hearing Kou say 'Well, Goujun, how's it going?' is just... it throws the whole background social system out the window, basically. *Kenren* talks like that, but Kenren's making a point of not being polite when he does it. If Kou talks like that, then he's being deliberately rude, and I'll wonder what he's being rude for.

[deathlike.livejournal.com]

Then again that's Kenren. He tend to be polite to his superiors, but not his underlings (same with his historical counterpart). Then again, it also depends on the situation. Kougaiji strikes me as the type not care about his social rank, same with Sanzo.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

that's Kenren. He tend to be polite to his superiors

Err- not that I see. Goujun is his superior officer and Kenren's all 'Jeez waddaya want, get off my back I'm busy' with him at Goujun's first appearance in the manga.

[tj-dragonblade.livejournal.com]

'If Your Majesty would care to give his thoughts on the matter...?'

Yes, yes, that's precisely the tone I'm trying to achieve! A third-person respectful reference as opposed to bluntly saying 'you' or 'your' (neither of them is using the other's name, at this point; it implies a level of casual familiarity that they really don't have). I'm finding, though, that when I try to apply this respectful-address form to the entire conversation, it comes off feeling simpering and pretentious somehow. Which could easily be the fault of the writing it's set in, more than anything else. Perhaps the rest of the dialogue and staging needs more tweaking, too. Hm. Maybe adjusting so that there's more...more passive/neutral speech or whatever it's properly called. Less opportunity for a 'you' or a 'your majesty' to occur ('I wanted to offer my gratitude' rather than 'I wanted to thank you'). I'll have to keep poking at this damned thing analytically until it either works or dies. Been in progress since December of '04. Not like it's going anywhere. -_-

I also stumble over the fact that 'Majesty', for me, conjures mental-associations of European royalty and Elizabethan costume, but I suppose that's a relatively narrow perception and I can pry my mind open enough to work around it without too much trouble. 'Excellency' might bear playing-around-with, too. And I suppose that one would address a king as Majesty whether or not one was subject to that king's rule or authority (i.e., Goujun is not Kou's sovereign nor his ranking officer, but Kou would offer him that respect regardless just because it's proper etiquette/good manners - would you agree?).

but it would depend on the context of the exchange

Friendly moving to intimately-more-than-friendly, in this case. For what it's worth. Which is causing me problems in trying to ascertain at what point in the proceedings the formality would ease. Perhaps it wouldn't. That could almost be more fun, to take them through the entire act without ever letting up on the stiff etiquette. Hm.

Because really...they wouldn't. They wouldn't drop the formality, given their respective breeding and station and given that they're mostly strangers. But then again they really wouldn't just 'hook up' in the first place, for all those same reasons. *headdesk*

The whole issue I find with trying to write a casual Goujun/Kou encounter is that I keep trying to make it make sense, when it isn't inclined to. Casual off-the-cuff sex - particularly with one another - is not really in character for either of them. That's probably what's at the root of all the 'little' issues I keep running up against. There's a stubborn streak somewhere in me, though, that just won't let the notion go, despite it all. *sigh* I'm bound and determined to make it work, whether it wants to or not. [insert aggressive brandishing of pen and keyboard here]

Heh. Got a little rambly, there. Mostly venting. My apologies. ^_^; But your input is appreciated. ^_^

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

'Majesty', for me, conjures mental-associations of European royalty and Elizabethan costume

How lucky I am to be Canadian. ^_^ 'Majesty' conjures mental associations of royal visits and the nice lady on our money.

It's hard to do a respectful third person until you see it done. I learned from a kids' writer Rosemary Harris (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/rosemary-harris/) and her Egyptian trilogy. But that was most useful for down-up respectful English. The more neutral kind comes from umm, English lawyers I suppose: 'Notice to Mr J Smith esq. If he will contact Blahblah blah, Barrister and Solicitors at this address, he will learn something to his advantage.'

I think most NAmericans find that respect language, or even respectful attitudes, sound simpering to them, just because it's not part of our democratic culture where everyone is assumed to be as good as everyone else and no one should have to truckle. IME the British handle it better if only because they've had their noses ground into literary works that embody respect language differences. Hear two 17th or 18th century gentlemen conversing in a play and you begin to get an idea how it works. Once you get into the mindset that rank (or cultural equivalent thereof) exists and matters in this society, but the verbal respect someone pays to rank has nothing to do with their own position and autonomy, respect sounds different. Thinking of it as politeness rather than deference helps too: you speak differently to the client your company is trying to woo than you do to your friends.

If you're having a problem with formal respect English, maybe you should just translate the feeling of the words into an equivalent modern English? Modern neutral polite dialogue will read as formal, especially if the narrator's voice is at all colloquial.

And I suppose that one would address a king as Majesty whether or not one was subject to that king's rule or authority (i.e., Goujun is not Kou's sovereign nor his ranking officer, but Kou would offer him that respect regardless just because it's proper etiquette/good manners - would you agree?)

In general, a king is a king and treated with the general courtesy extended to kings. The Japanese twist on this is that rank is often situational. Yes, Goujun's a king: but when he's in Heaven, you note, he's a (paper-pushing) general and people talk to him like that. No one, not even Tenpou, speaks to him with anything approaching the respect level kings deserve. Kenren talks to him like an insubordinate underling. So Goujun has a king's title, maybe, but his heavenly military rank takes precedence, at least in heaven. Now, how a youkai of earth will see him is another matter entirely. Does Kou relate to him as a Chief Commander of the heavenly army or as the king of an earthly sea?

As for forms of address, there's a possible out in that Japanese likes to address people by title (general, toushin taishi, section chief) rather than honorific (excellence, highness, Mr Whoever.) Goujun's always called Dragon King Goujun, and I hear 'dragon king' as a title (like buchou) rather than a simple descriptor. (Everyone knows he's a dragon, if nothing else.) So it's theorestically possible to have Kou call him Dragon King, and him call Kou Prince Youkai. The pain is that 'prince' alone is a perfectly good semi-intimate form of historical address. I don't feel the same way about 'king'.

The other solution, and one I'd probably take myself, is to use first names and Japanese honorifics. Goujun-sama sounds just fine to my ear: but then, I read the series in Japanese where honorifics come with the territory. Someone else may hear them as fangirl Japanese. Kougaiji-sama is a bit of a mouthful, and anyway my instincts would have Goujun calling him 'prince' or 'highness'. Why, I don't know. Goujun actually *isn't* all that well-spoken when you look at his Japanese closely. It's not in your face rude like Kenren, but... but he does use a fairly neutral may-cause-offence form of 'you' to Konzen, whom he doesn't know and wants a favour from. King talking to commoner? Commander talking to civilian? Heavenly outsider talking to heavenly insider?

Err- yes. Rambly, yes. This is a very rambly subject.

[tj-dragonblade.livejournal.com]

It's hard to do a respectful third person until you see it done...maybe you should just translate the feeling of the words into an equivalent modern English? Modern neutral polite dialogue will read as formal

In the interest of a more comfortable narrative, that might be where I end up staying. If I'm not entirely confident in my ability to pull off the formal-respect language smoothly, it's going to show (and probably quite badly).

I think it's safe to say that this...thing...is going to be a WIP for quite awhile yet.

Again, though, I thank you for your input. It gets my brain working in a more forward-thinking direction, as opposed the the stuttering circular patterns it likes to fall into sometimes. I especially appreciate the insights on how things are conveyed in the original Japanese. It's a remarkably helpful perspective. ^_^

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Weird- lj didn't send me this comment. Sorry for the no-reply, and thanks for the props. Truthfully, I'm not terribly confident about my reading of Japanese social nuances, and I get less confident the longer I'm away from the society and back in my own. So take everything with a grain of salt. The Japanese take on things is always a knight's move in chess- 'wait, wait, how'd you wind up over there?'- so whatever I think it looks like, it probably looks totally different to them.

[tj-dragonblade.livejournal.com]

If it's alright, could I pick your brain a little more on this subject?

Does Kou relate to him as a Chief Commander of the heavenly army or as the king of an earthly sea?

I've decided, for the scenario in question, it's much more likely that Kou would be regarding him in his heavenly military capacity. I'm assuming that 'Commander Goujun-sama' would be entirely wrong; it's my guess that whatever the equivalent term, the 'commander' would be used after the name in place of an honorific (i.e., it's Kenren Taishou rather than Taishou Kenren-sama/-dono/-san/etc). If I'm wrong in my assumption, though, I would like to know.

I'm curious, also - does anyone address him as 'Commander Goujun', or is it always (as you'd mentioned above) 'Dragon King Goujun', or simply 'Goujun-sama'? Does the 'title' of Commander stem more from English-speaking fandom naming him thusly because of the fact that he's at the head of the Western Army? I know there's the mouthful-of-a-title on the order of 'Dragon King of the Western Sea/Ocean and Commander of the Western Army of Heaven', but I'm not entirely sure of either where it was I saw that particular translation or if it's entirely accurate.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Military rank address does indeed go 'personal names + rank' so if you were giving Goujun a Japanese rank name it'd be something like Goujun Sousui (the only term I happen to know for 'commander' though I'm pretty sure there are others.) In straight military usage you leave the -sama off when there's a rank name, but I think it's not impossible to say "Kenren Taishou-sama": just don't quote me. I'm going by (my outdated experience of) office usage, where you do call the company head Shachou pure and simple, but I know I've heard Shachou-sama on occasion. Nonetheless, title + -sama sounds very deferential down-to-up to my gaijin ear and I don't think Kou would take that humble a position.

However in this case--
Does the 'title' of Commander stem more from English-speaking fandom naming him thusly because of the fact that he's at the head of the Western Army?

So I go review the sources like my profs told me to do and yes, you're absolutely right. Nowhere do I see him being called Commander or given any military title at all. His title in the army does indeed seem to be 'Dragon King of the Western Sea/Ocean.' It's not only the way Kenren reflexively thinks of him when Goujun's introduced in vol 1, more convincingly it's what the guards whom Konzen passes in the corridor are saying during the crisis in vol 2- 'We must inform the Dragon King of the Western Sea/Ocean at once!' Granted Seikai (western ocean) Ryuuou (dragon king) rolls off the tongue a lot more easily in Japanese- rather like Seiten Taisei- this does raise problems in English.

FWIW the guards in the throne room, the ones not in uniform, call him Goujun-sama. Seikai Ryuuou seems to be how people think about him, Goujun-sama what people-not-his-men call him. (Annoyingly I can't find his men ever addressing him at all except by pronoun- a cheeky 'anta' from Kenren and anata from Tenpou.) The whole thing of 'in-group title usage' eg 'section chief/ buchou' vs 'name usage' is a can of worms that I only kind of grasp, but again on the office parallel, using title not name is often reserved for the people actually in a person's organization. So his men may not only think of him as Seikai Ryuuou, they may call him that if they had to use a title when talking to him.

Where this leaves you with Kou-- is that on first meeting he might well call Goujun '(Dragon) King of the Western Ocean' since there are lots of buchous in the world but only one dragon king of the western ocean, so that title is specific to Goujun; he might, if they were being friendly, call him Goujun-sama thereafter. One problem in all this is that in Japanese he'd generally avoid calling him anything: Japanese doesn't like using names or even titles over much and conveys 'I'm addressing you' by respect level and certain polite flourishes. But in English /not/ using names or titles is rude, like talking to servants or close family members, so you need to insert them to maintain formality. The other problem is that 'dragon king' may be Goujun's official and quasi-military title in the army of heaven, but a western ear automatically thinks 'Hey! A king! that means he's Your Majesty.'

That may be why I unthinkingly concluded that Goujun had some kind of outsider status in Heaven. Yeah, he leads the army, but he doesn't have a military rank. He's a visiting general, as it were. But it may be something quite different. Kenren says he's a toushin from a family of elite toushin; ie you want someone to lead your army, you ask one of the dragon kings for help. But he's still a king and that still kind of trumps your organization. So like the Persian emperor's brother who served in Alexander's troops- yeah, he's (whatever his name was) Artabanes of the Guards, but he's of royal birth so he's Prince Artabanes to the Macedonians: and Goujun's official title is Seikai Ryuuou. It's not an informational name like general or commander- we *know* he's a dragon, no need to keep telling us- it's an acknowledgement of status.

[tj-dragonblade.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's the 'Majesty' and the 'Highness' that I've been playing around with, and I have a hard time getting past the fact that they 'sound' weird. 'Majesty' particularly. *sigh*

*keeps playing*