'Majesty', for me, conjures mental-associations of European royalty and Elizabethan costume
How lucky I am to be Canadian. ^_^ 'Majesty' conjures mental associations of royal visits and the nice lady on our money.
It's hard to do a respectful third person until you see it done. I learned from a kids' writer Rosemary Harris (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/rosemary-harris/) and her Egyptian trilogy. But that was most useful for down-up respectful English. The more neutral kind comes from umm, English lawyers I suppose: 'Notice to Mr J Smith esq. If he will contact Blahblah blah, Barrister and Solicitors at this address, he will learn something to his advantage.'
I think most NAmericans find that respect language, or even respectful attitudes, sound simpering to them, just because it's not part of our democratic culture where everyone is assumed to be as good as everyone else and no one should have to truckle. IME the British handle it better if only because they've had their noses ground into literary works that embody respect language differences. Hear two 17th or 18th century gentlemen conversing in a play and you begin to get an idea how it works. Once you get into the mindset that rank (or cultural equivalent thereof) exists and matters in this society, but the verbal respect someone pays to rank has nothing to do with their own position and autonomy, respect sounds different. Thinking of it as politeness rather than deference helps too: you speak differently to the client your company is trying to woo than you do to your friends.
If you're having a problem with formal respect English, maybe you should just translate the feeling of the words into an equivalent modern English? Modern neutral polite dialogue will read as formal, especially if the narrator's voice is at all colloquial.
And I suppose that one would address a king as Majesty whether or not one was subject to that king's rule or authority (i.e., Goujun is not Kou's sovereign nor his ranking officer, but Kou would offer him that respect regardless just because it's proper etiquette/good manners - would you agree?)
In general, a king is a king and treated with the general courtesy extended to kings. The Japanese twist on this is that rank is often situational. Yes, Goujun's a king: but when he's in Heaven, you note, he's a (paper-pushing) general and people talk to him like that. No one, not even Tenpou, speaks to him with anything approaching the respect level kings deserve. Kenren talks to him like an insubordinate underling. So Goujun has a king's title, maybe, but his heavenly military rank takes precedence, at least in heaven. Now, how a youkai of earth will see him is another matter entirely. Does Kou relate to him as a Chief Commander of the heavenly army or as the king of an earthly sea?
As for forms of address, there's a possible out in that Japanese likes to address people by title (general, toushin taishi, section chief) rather than honorific (excellence, highness, Mr Whoever.) Goujun's always called Dragon King Goujun, and I hear 'dragon king' as a title (like buchou) rather than a simple descriptor. (Everyone knows he's a dragon, if nothing else.) So it's theorestically possible to have Kou call him Dragon King, and him call Kou Prince Youkai. The pain is that 'prince' alone is a perfectly good semi-intimate form of historical address. I don't feel the same way about 'king'.
The other solution, and one I'd probably take myself, is to use first names and Japanese honorifics. Goujun-sama sounds just fine to my ear: but then, I read the series in Japanese where honorifics come with the territory. Someone else may hear them as fangirl Japanese. Kougaiji-sama is a bit of a mouthful, and anyway my instincts would have Goujun calling him 'prince' or 'highness'. Why, I don't know. Goujun actually *isn't* all that well-spoken when you look at his Japanese closely. It's not in your face rude like Kenren, but... but he does use a fairly neutral may-cause-offence form of 'you' to Konzen, whom he doesn't know and wants a favour from. King talking to commoner? Commander talking to civilian? Heavenly outsider talking to heavenly insider?
Err- yes. Rambly, yes. This is a very rambly subject.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2007-07-28 01:06 pm (UTC)How lucky I am to be Canadian. ^_^ 'Majesty' conjures mental associations of royal visits and the nice lady on our money.
It's hard to do a respectful third person until you see it done. I learned from a kids' writer Rosemary Harris (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/rosemary-harris/) and her Egyptian trilogy. But that was most useful for down-up respectful English. The more neutral kind comes from umm, English lawyers I suppose: 'Notice to Mr J Smith esq. If he will contact Blahblah blah, Barrister and Solicitors at this address, he will learn something to his advantage.'
I think most NAmericans find that respect language, or even respectful attitudes, sound simpering to them, just because it's not part of our democratic culture where everyone is assumed to be as good as everyone else and no one should have to truckle. IME the British handle it better if only because they've had their noses ground into literary works that embody respect language differences. Hear two 17th or 18th century gentlemen conversing in a play and you begin to get an idea how it works. Once you get into the mindset that rank (or cultural equivalent thereof) exists and matters in this society, but the verbal respect someone pays to rank has nothing to do with their own position and autonomy, respect sounds different. Thinking of it as politeness rather than deference helps too: you speak differently to the client your company is trying to woo than you do to your friends.
If you're having a problem with formal respect English, maybe you should just translate the feeling of the words into an equivalent modern English? Modern neutral polite dialogue will read as formal, especially if the narrator's voice is at all colloquial.
And I suppose that one would address a king as Majesty whether or not one was subject to that king's rule or authority (i.e., Goujun is not Kou's sovereign nor his ranking officer, but Kou would offer him that respect regardless just because it's proper etiquette/good manners - would you agree?)
In general, a king is a king and treated with the general courtesy extended to kings. The Japanese twist on this is that rank is often situational. Yes, Goujun's a king: but when he's in Heaven, you note, he's a (paper-pushing) general and people talk to him like that. No one, not even Tenpou, speaks to him with anything approaching the respect level kings deserve. Kenren talks to him like an insubordinate underling. So Goujun has a king's title, maybe, but his heavenly military rank takes precedence, at least in heaven. Now, how a youkai of earth will see him is another matter entirely. Does Kou relate to him as a Chief Commander of the heavenly army or as the king of an earthly sea?
As for forms of address, there's a possible out in that Japanese likes to address people by title (general, toushin taishi, section chief) rather than honorific (excellence, highness, Mr Whoever.) Goujun's always called Dragon King Goujun, and I hear 'dragon king' as a title (like buchou) rather than a simple descriptor. (Everyone knows he's a dragon, if nothing else.) So it's theorestically possible to have Kou call him Dragon King, and him call Kou Prince Youkai. The pain is that 'prince' alone is a perfectly good semi-intimate form of historical address. I don't feel the same way about 'king'.
The other solution, and one I'd probably take myself, is to use first names and Japanese honorifics. Goujun-sama sounds just fine to my ear: but then, I read the series in Japanese where honorifics come with the territory. Someone else may hear them as fangirl Japanese. Kougaiji-sama is a bit of a mouthful, and anyway my instincts would have Goujun calling him 'prince' or 'highness'. Why, I don't know. Goujun actually *isn't* all that well-spoken when you look at his Japanese closely. It's not in your face rude like Kenren, but... but he does use a fairly neutral may-cause-offence form of 'you' to Konzen, whom he doesn't know and wants a favour from. King talking to commoner? Commander talking to civilian? Heavenly outsider talking to heavenly insider?
Err- yes. Rambly, yes. This is a very rambly subject.